Opened 10 years ago

Closed 10 years ago

Last modified 9 years ago

#836 closed change (invalid)

General Comments

Reported by: Spacebux Owned by:
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Description

I've not played angband since an early revision of 3.0.9. Having come back to 3.1.x, I've been steadily playing [06206fc] (SVN r1283), I have the following comments about the game play. Forgive me if this is not the right forum / discussion board for these comments.

The game designers seem to be hell bent on making mages harder and harder to play. Reducing effectiveness of spells, etc. I'm not quite sure what the motivation is here, other than the perception that mages tend to win most often?

Anyway -

  1. Rogues should not be getting mage spells. Rather, the game needs to introduce Rogue-unique skills to the rogue class. Picking locks, kindling fires (to light rooms or hallways permanently), setting traps for mobs to trip, peeking into a mobs' inventory (and attempting to theft such inventory or gold from a mob (with a much greater chance of success if the mob is asleep)), backstabing for multiple damage, and being able to disappear quickly like the other rogues in the game when they loot one's purse of gold.
  2. Warriors need better skills, too. Kicking to stun mobs (akin to what mystics do), bashing spell-casters / breathers off their feet (so they cannot cast / breathe until they have recovered their composure), and dodge, perry, & other fencing type skills to assist defense in melee combat.

There are a lot of cases where a mage can handle with spells that a warrior or theif simply could not. E.g., I asked my friend who enjoys playing warriors how he handles packs of high-level hounds (plasma, gravity, inertia, etc.). His answer was simple - "just run away"... avoidance was his tactic. Unless a warrior happens to have high-level wands of ball or breath spells, carries a bunch of speed items, or has a distinct method (i.e., high resistance/immunity) to combat such hounds, vortices, there is little for the class player to do in terms of strategy. My point is, for mages and clerics, and probably for paladins & rangers, there are medium-level solutions to slowly picking off the hounds through attrition - bouncing ball spells off walls, etc. It's not easy, it's time consuming, but in the end, a patient spell-caster can usually manage the situation.

Rather than focus on making spell-casters harder to play, increase the abilities of the non-spell casters through class-unique skills. For instance, a rogue with a good trapping technique could set a bunch of traps along a hallway, and bait the hounds to chase after him, unwittingly springing the traps. (The game would need to keep track of such kills, giving the rogue credit for the XP kills.)

  1. Level 51+. Seems the game changes dramatically once a character hits level 50. XP is no longer a motivation, only artifacts and uniques are the remaining challenges. To make XP a bit more enticing, what if levels 51 onward were attainable at given intervals of XP? only a few HPs / MPs would be gained, but there would be new reason to quaff potions of XP other than for the nutritional value.
  1. Mages should be able to read all the spells in the mage books. What is the point of keeping all those spells illegible in Tenser's??? What tactical advantage does it keep mages from upgrading equipment like rangers? The scrolls of those spells are still available in the shops, so other than forcing the mages to go shopping, what is the point of preventing mages from learning those spells? If the point is to create ranger-class unique skills, than by all means, do so. Mages should not have "cure light wounds", by the way---that needs to be replaced with a weaker form of the shield spell or a "distraction" / ventril spell to distract the minds of weaker mobs or detect gold spell. In summary, mages should be able to learn all spells in "mage" books. If the designers feel mages should not learn those spells, then take them out of the books all together. This "illegible" stuff looks silly. "You stoopid mage!" :)

Mob drops:

I appreciate the attempts to reduce the amount of trash around the dungeon floors. However, whatever happened to all the cursed items?? Seems like 90% of the items picked up are not cursed at all. Some unique weapons / arrows still maintain the *heavil cursed* or *cursed* flags, but in 3.0.9, maybe 30% of the items were (- to-hit / - to-dam) weapons. Perhaps coders could also could a change to allow some items to be mixed - (negative to-hit coupled with a positive to-dam) or (positive to-hit with negative to-dam). And, yes, I for one miss the broken swords / daggers. :D

Inventory:

What's wrong with allowing characters to haul chests? (and, in-turn, placing up to 9 items in larger chests, 4 items in smaller chests)?? I think this will tie into aiding the warrior class greatly in terms of permitting warriors to lug around more equipment (they usually have the strength to do so). And, yes, I would also permit the players to store chests of stuff back home to increase inventory at home.
I feel the game's a bit too limiting on slots available. I understand that's supposed to be part of the challenge of the game, but chests are generally not light-weight, especially the iron ones. And, heaven help the poor guy who stores a bunch of stuff in a wooden chest that gets flamed by a fire hound! If acid gets on an iron chest, that would say, ruin it, causing holes to break open, and possibly spilling the contents onto the dungeon floor.

Power-based pricing:

What? Why? ... I really don't understand the why the developers have thought this to be a key development for 3.1.x. I don't see how this greatly affects the game other than to slow the development down of some classes---to the point of tedious.

Item modifications:

Would be interesting to see items that have greater mixes of benefits & detriments. For example, wands that cast a poison ball, but will also blind the user if s/he does not have RBlind on. A potion of quickness that permanently increases a player's speed between 1~3 points, but also reduces 2 or more stats by 3~4 points. A whip of shockwave that produces an R2 explosion on contact with a mob - if the wielder does not have RConfuion or RSound gear on, she/he too may be stunned by the explosion... stuff like that, mix it up a little more. Again, give the warriors / theives more options.

Focus more on making the warrior and theif skills better / greater / more interesting. Stop trying to penalize the spell-casting classes for being "too good". The next step, would be then to modify mob AI a little more.

Good game, overall, but just wish the developers would focus on those points I made above.

Change History (4)

comment:1 Changed 10 years ago by elsairon

Places to discuss these issues with players and dev(s)

here -> http://angband.oook.cz/forum/

or here -> the newsgroup rec.games.roguelike.angband

comment:2 in reply to: ↑ description Changed 10 years ago by magnate

  • Milestone changed from Triage to Future

I am not the maintainer, just an interested contributor. Below are my views, which are not necessarily relevant to the future of Angband.

Replying to Spacebux:

  1. Rogues should not be getting mage spells. Rather, the game needs to introduce Rogue-unique skills to the rogue class.
  2. Warriors need better skills, too. Kicking to stun mobs (akin to what mystics do), bashing spell-casters / breathers off their feet (so they cannot cast / breathe until they have recovered their composure), and dodge, perry, & other fencing type skills to assist defense in melee combat.

There are lots of variants you can play which have a skill-based approach to classes. It's never been part of vanilla Angband, so why would it start now? (How long have you been playing?) I'm not saying these aren't good ideas, they're just very different to what this particular game has ever been.

  1. Level 51+.

You can't have been playing long. This has been discussed ad nauseam. The consensus is that it wouldn't actually make the game any more interesting. You don't need to reach level 50 to win (see the Oook ladder for many winners in their 40s).

  1. Mages should be able to read all the spells in the mage books.

Not if you have specific spells for rangers and rogues, which we do. Mages do not lack for spells - there are plenty that don't get enough use already.

I appreciate the attempts to reduce the amount of trash around the dungeon floors. However, whatever happened to all the cursed items??

Sticky curses are annoying, and don't do anything to make the game better. More interesting and varied types of curse are in development, along the lines of the "mixed-blessing" items you suggest. In the meantime, the number of sticky-cursed items has been reduced, which most of us are quite happy about!

What's wrong with allowing characters to haul chests? (and, in-turn, placing up to 9 items in larger chests, 4 items in smaller chests)??

Being able to store items in chests requires code that doesn't exist. If you look at the open tickets, you'll see quite a few other things that need code work. I don't particularly have a problem with the idea, but it's a lot of coding work for very little gain.

Power-based pricing:

What? Why? ... I really don't understand the why the developers have thought this to be a key development for 3.1.x. I don't see how this greatly affects the game other than to slow the development down of some classes---to the point of tedious.

As the contributor of power-based pricing I'd be grateful if you could explain how on earth it affects the development of any classes. All it does is rationalise prices, and it does that identically for every class.

Good game, overall, but just wish the developers would focus on those points I made above.

If you really want to see some of your suggestions implemented, start some threads on the forum or newsgroup (details per Elsairon above) and see if you can get a significant number of people to support you. I think you'll find that most of your ideas are better suited to (or already implemented in) variants - but I could be wrong. I also think you won't find much agreement with the idea that mages are being penalised for being "too good".

comment:3 Changed 10 years ago by takkaria

  • Resolution set to invalid
  • Status changed from new to closed

Yeah, please don't post long rants like this one here. I appreciate the feedback, but the place to post it is at the forum: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/, where more people will reply and you'll get some actual discussion.

comment:4 Changed 9 years ago by magnate

  • Milestone Future deleted
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